+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Posts 1 to 12 of 49

Thread: Everyone saying that Manson is a bad influence on Avril. I suggest you read this.

  1. Post #1
    Member of the Month (July 2012)
    I Am Disappeared


    Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 17, 2012
    Real Name
    Ryan
    Location
    Great Britain
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    2,324
    Threads
    49
    Thanks
    732
    Thanked 1,373 Times in 745 Posts

    Everyone saying that Manson is a bad influence on Avril. I suggest you read this.

    Share to Facebook

    There's a lot of negativity about Marilyn Manson working with Avril Lavigne.

    Those basing their opinions simply on not liking his music, that's kind of understandable, it's not to everyone's taste.

    However, I've seen an equal, if not larger amount of complaining about the pair based on people's perception of his personality.

    There's been a huge number of you suggesting that he is not the sort of person Avril should be hanging around with due to rumours of his association with this or that or even the fact that people just think he's a creepy looking guy.

    Admittedly he's controversial and not afraid to stir things up (as seen in that interview where he was questioned about dating Avril) but it's really all an image thing. The guy is actually a genius.

    Below is an article he wrote for Rolling Stone magazine about the Columbine school massacre in the late 90's. He states his disgust about how the press associated him in with the murderers simply because their dress code and personality lent itself to the stereotypical Manson fan. He describes how this event turned him into a scapegoat public figure representative of everything bad in the world and how he hated it and the way that it even led to compete misinterpretation of many of his songs.

    The article still tackles some controversial points and isn't a gentle read but I feel after reading it that I understand Manson much better.
    I'm not saying I agree with everything he says but maybe you'll feel the same.


    Columbine: Whose Fault Is It?
    by Marilyn Manson

    It is sad to think that the first few people on earth needed no books, movies, games or music to inspire cold-blooded murder. The day that Cain bashed his brother Abel's brains in, the only motivation he needed was his own human disposition to violence. Whether you interpret the Bible as literature or as the final word of whatever God may be, Christianity has given us an image of death and sexuality that we have based our culture around. A half-naked dead man hangs in most homes and around our necks, and we have just taken that for granted all our lives. Is it a symbol of hope or hopelessness? The world's most famous murder-suicide was also the birth of the death icon -- the blueprint for celebrity.

    Unfortunately, for all of their inspiring morality, nowhere in the Gospels is intelligence praised as a virtue.
    A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy. The name Marilyn Manson has never celebrated the sad fact that America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes. They just created two new ones when they plastered those dipshits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris' pictures on the front of every newspaper. Don't be surprised if every kid who gets pushed around has two new idols.

    We applaud the creation of a bomb whose sole purpose is to destroy all of mankind, and we grow up watching our president's brains splattered all over Texas. Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised. Does anyone think the Civil War was the least bit civil? If television had existed, you could be sure they would have been there to cover it, or maybe even participate in it, like their violent car chase of Princess Di. Disgusting vultures looking for corpses, exploiting, fucking, filming and serving it up for our hungry appetites in a gluttonous display of endless human stupidity.

    When it comes down to who's to blame for the high school murders in Littleton, Colorado, throw a rock and you'll hit someone who's guilty. We're the people who sit back and tolerate children owning guns, and we're the ones who tune in and watch the up-to-the-minute details of what they do with them. I think it's terrible when anyone dies, especially if it is someone you know and love. But what is more offensive is that when these tragedies happen, most people don't really care any more than they would about the season finale of Friends or The Real World. I was dumbfounded as I watched the media snake right in, not missing a teardrop, interviewing the parents of dead children, televising the funerals. Then came the witch hunt.

    Man's greatest fear is chaos. It was unthinkable that these kids did not have a simple black-and-white reason for their actions. And so a scapegoat was needed. I remember hearing the initial reports from Littleton, that Harris and Klebold were wearing makeup and were dressed like Marilyn Manson, whom they obviously must worship, since they were dressed in black. Of course, speculation snowballed into making me the poster boy for everything that is bad in the world. These two idiots weren't wearing makeup, and they weren't dressed like me or like goths. Since Middle America has not heard of the music they did listen to (KMFDM and Rammstein, among others), the media picked something they thought was similar.

    Responsible journalists have reported with less publicity that Harris and Klebold were not Marilyn Manson fans -- that they even disliked my music. Even if they were fans, that gives them no excuse, nor does it mean that music is to blame. Did we look for James Huberty's inspiration when he gunned down people at McDonald's? What did Timothy McVeigh like to watch? What about David Koresh, Jim Jones? Do you think entertainment inspired Kip Kinkel, or should we blame the fact that his father bought him the guns he used in the Springfield, Oregon, murders? What inspires Bill Clinton to blow people up in Kosovo? Was it something that Monica Lewinsky said to him? Isn't killing just killing, regardless if it's in Vietnam or Jonesboro, Arkansas? Why do we justify one, just because it seems to be for the right reasons? Should there ever be a right reason? If a kid is old enough to drive a car or buy a gun, isn't he old enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with his car or gun? Or if he's a teenager, should someone else be blamed because he isn't as enlightened as an eighteen-year-old?

    America loves to find an icon to hang its guilt on. But, admittedly, I have assumed the role of Antichrist; I am the Nineties voice of individuality, and people tend to associate anyone who looks and behaves differently with illegal or immoral activity. Deep down, most adults hate people who go against the grain. It's comical that people are naive enough to have forgotten Elvis, Jim Morrison and Ozzy so quickly. All of them were subjected to the same age-old arguments, scrutiny and prejudice. I wrote a song called "Lunchbox," and some journalists have interpreted it as a song about guns. Ironically, the song is about being picked on and fighting back with my Kiss lunch box, which I used as a weapon on the playground. In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents. I also wrote a song called "Get Your Gunn." The title is spelled with two n's because the song was a reaction to the murder of Dr. David Gunn, who was killed in Florida by pro-life activists while I was living there. That was the ultimate hypocrisy I witnessed growing up: that these people killed someone in the name of being "pro-life."

    The somewhat positive messages of these songs are usually the ones that sensationalists misinterpret as promoting the very things I am decrying. Right now, everyone is thinking of how they can prevent things like Littleton. How do you prevent AIDS, world war, depression, car crashes? We live in a free country, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility. Rather than teaching a child what is moral and immoral, right and wrong, we first and foremost can establish what the laws that govern us are. You can always escape hell by not believing in it, but you cannot escape death and you cannot escape prison.

    It is no wonder that kids are growing up more cynical; they have a lot of information in front of them. They can see that they are living in a world that's made of bullshit. In the past, there was always the idea that you could turn and run and start something better. But now America has become one big mall, and because of the Internet and all of the technology we have, there's nowhere to run. People are the same everywhere. Sometimes music, movies and books are the only things that let us feel like someone else feels like we do. I've always tried to let people know it's OK, or better, if you don't fit into the program. Use your imagination -- if some geek from Ohio can become something, why can't anyone else with the willpower and creativity?

    I chose not to jump into the media frenzy and defend myself, though I was begged to be on every single TV show in existence. I didn't want to contribute to these fame-seeking journalists and opportunists looking to fill their churches or to get elected because of their self-righteous finger-pointing. They want to blame entertainment? Isn't religion the first real entertainment? People dress up in costumes, sing songs and dedicate themselves in eternal fandom. Everyone will agree that nothing was more entertaining than Clinton shooting off his prick and then his bombs in true political form. And the news -- that's obvious. So is entertainment to blame? I'd like media commentators to ask themselves, because their coverage of the event was some of the most gruesome entertainment any of us have seen.

    I think that the National Rifle Association is far too powerful to take on, so most people choose Doom, The Basketball Diaries or yours truly. This kind of controversy does not help me sell records or tickets, and I wouldn't want it to. I'm a controversial artist, one who dares to have an opinion and bothers to create music and videos that challenge people's ideas in a world that is watered-down and hollow. In my work I examine the America we live in, and I've always tried to show people that the devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. So don't expect the end of the world to come one day out of the blue -- it's been happening every day for a long time.

    MARILYN MANSON (May 28, 1999)

    Member of the Month July 2012
    "No one gets remembered for the things they didn't do"

  2. Thanks from 6 members:  avrilxxx15, Banz, Keinware, NINO16, Rebel101, starabovemybedX0

  3. Post #2
    Registered User
    I listen through your eyes and through your eyes I can see


    HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2, 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Gender
    Male Male
    Posts
    1,660
    Threads
    46
    Thanks
    259
    Thanked 816 Times in 430 Posts
    I don't see why people would be so alarmed about Avril associating herself with Marilyn Manson.

    I mean, Marilyn Manson hasn't been relevant since 1999. No one talks about him anymore. His shock factor is long gone. What harm can he do?

  4. Post #3
    Member of the Month (July 2012)
    I Am Disappeared


    Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 17, 2012
    Real Name
    Ryan
    Location
    Great Britain
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    2,324
    Threads
    49
    Thanks
    732
    Thanked 1,373 Times in 745 Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by HBK-79 To view the link you have to Register
    I don't see why people would be so alarmed about Avril associating herself with Marilyn Manson.

    I mean, Marilyn Manson hasn't been relevant since 1999. No one talks about him anymore. His shock factor is long gone. What harm can he do?
    I think people are just scared of him actually and the false rumours that have been spread have given him a dodgy reputation. He's always been different but in comparison to the emerging artists of the past 2 years you couldn't have a larger contrast.

    Member of the Month July 2012
    "No one gets remembered for the things they didn't do"

  5. Thanks from 1 members:  starabovemybedX0

  6. Post #4
    Registered User
    I listen through your eyes and through your eyes I can see


    HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79 has a spectacular aura about HBK-79's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2, 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Gender
    Male Male
    Posts
    1,660
    Threads
    46
    Thanks
    259
    Thanked 816 Times in 430 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated Brit To view the link you have to Register
    I think people are just scared of him actually and the false rumours that have been spread have given him a dodgy reputation. He's always been different but in comparison to the emerging artists of the past 2 years you couldn't have a larger contrast.
    I somewhat remember Taylor Momsen and Marilyn Manson getting up on stage together this year. And I don't think that even caused a stir.

  7. Post #5
    Member of the Month (July 2012)
    I Am Disappeared


    Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 17, 2012
    Real Name
    Ryan
    Location
    Great Britain
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    2,324
    Threads
    49
    Thanks
    732
    Thanked 1,373 Times in 745 Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by HBK-79 To view the link you have to Register
    I somewhat remember Taylor Momsen and Marilyn Manson getting up on stage together this year. And I don't think that even caused a stir.
    Maybe it's because Taylor Momsen has got an image more that way inclined than Avril anyway. Some of her music videos are quite gothic in nature.

    Even so, it does make me feel a little guilty for judging Manson before looking further into what he has to say for himself, and I sure wasn't the most negative poster about him by a long shot

    Member of the Month July 2012
    "No one gets remembered for the things they didn't do"

  8. Post #6
    Media Team Member
    Can't help it if I space in a daze.


    Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe is on a distinguished road Jeppe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 24, 2012
    Real Name
    Jesper
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    3,929
    Threads
    32
    Thanks
    1,154
    Thanked 1,531 Times in 782 Posts
    I agree with you Opinionated Brit. Everyone might not like the guy but he is not a bad influence to her. We know Avril wouldn't be hanging out with bad people. What we know about Manson is just the things we see in interviews and articles just like this one. Avril knows him personally, and we have no idea what he is like. I doubt that Avril would hanging around with bad people. I think Avril knows pretty well what she is doing.

  9. Thanks from 1 members:  La vie en Rose

  10. Post #7
    Banned
    You guys get so offended easily lol!


    avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light
    Join Date
    Jan 24, 2011
    Gender
    Male Male
    Posts
    17,621
    Threads
    218
    Thanks
    8,853
    Thanked 4,019 Times in 2,447 Posts
    I rather see Avril hanging out/working with Manson than to see her hanging out with Avril, I understand fans getting angry at Avril for seeing with Alanis, But I don't understand why the outrage with Manson ( and Chad )

    With music, at least Avril is not working/bffs with LMFAO and Pitbull.

    When Avril hangs out with Rockstars, it cause outrage, when she hangs out with preppy people, its the same, Now I have no idea whose people Avrl should get near with.

    BUT I KNOW that many fans wish is for Avrl to be best friends with Hayley Williams, and to some extant, Alanis Morisette.

  11. Post #8
    Banned
    You guys get so offended easily lol!


    avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light
    Join Date
    Jan 24, 2011
    Gender
    Male Male
    Posts
    17,621
    Threads
    218
    Thanks
    8,853
    Thanked 4,019 Times in 2,447 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by jeppe434 To view the link you have to Register
    I agree with you Opinionated Brit. Everyone might not like the guy but he is not a bad influence to her. We know Avril wouldn't be hanging out with bad people. What we know about Manson is just the things we see in interviews and articles just like this one. Avril know him personally, and we have no idea what he is like. I doubt that Avril would hanging around with bad people. I think Avril knows pretty well what she is doing.
    Considering who Avril did hang out in the past, Avril actually loves to hangs out with bad people( he even dated one !) and "bad people". Paris Hilton, Brandon Davis, all those unknown billionaire boys and rich, unknown spoiled socialite she parties, with, specially during 2008-2010 etc, All those people made Manson a good influence towards Avril.

    At this moment, I am sure Avril knows what she is doing, specially that we rarely saw her hanging out with such people, or rarely out at the parties

    But in the past, I will say that Avril doesn't know what she is doing and have bad selection of friends in the past, I also think Avril have no idea that she been influenced by them when she took her guard off.

  12. Post #9
    Moderator
    mmm


    Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 13, 2008
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    6,425
    Threads
    89
    Thanks
    1,572
    Thanked 3,000 Times in 1,454 Posts

    Manson over Evan and Chad any day.

  13. Thanks from 1 members:  <Dylan>

  14. Post #10
    Member of the Month (July 2012)
    I Am Disappeared


    Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit is on a distinguished road Opinionated Brit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 17, 2012
    Real Name
    Ryan
    Location
    Great Britain
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    2,324
    Threads
    49
    Thanks
    732
    Thanked 1,373 Times in 745 Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by jeppe434 To view the link you have to Register
    I agree with you Opinionated Brit. Everyone might not like the guy but he is not a bad influence to her. We know Avril wouldn't be hanging out with bad people. What we know about Manson is just the things we see in interviews and articles just like this one. Avril know him personally, and we have no idea what he is like. I doubt that Avril would hanging around with bad people. I think Avril knows pretty well what she is doing.
    Exactly,

    From what I've been reading from Manson as well he really does feel a bit victimised and misunderstood by the press. The kind of publicity he got from the press was based on assumptions about his music and style and this wasn't based on concrete facts. People seem to accept everything they hear on TV shows and don't respect the difference between fact and opinion. This has really hurt Manson.

    He's not just been popular with Avril either, lots of other people who know him personally have got on very well with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by avrilxxx15 To view the link you have to Register
    I rather see Avril hanging out/working with Manson than to see her hanging out with Avril, I understand fans getting angry at Avril for seeing with Alanis, But I don't understand why the outrage with Manson ( and Chad )

    With music, at least Avril is not working/bffs with LMFAO and Pitbull.

    When Avril hangs out with Rockstars, it cause outrage, when she hangs out with preppy people, its the same, Now I have no idea whose people Avrl should get near with.

    BUT I KNOW that many fans wish is for Avrl to be best friends with Hayley Williams, and to some extant, Alanis Morisette.
    It's this kind of thing that people seem to judge Avril for. She doesn't hang out in a gang of happy little popstars like some other artists do. To me that just looks fake and like a desperate plea for popularity and association anyway. She seems to hang out with whoever she wants to hang out with and who are we to question her, we don't even know these people personally and I've seen a lot of statements based on presumptuous ideals.

    Member of the Month July 2012
    "No one gets remembered for the things they didn't do"

  15. Thanks from 1 members:  starabovemybedX0

  16. Post #11
    Banned
    You guys get so offended easily lol!


    avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light avrilxxx15 is a glorious beacon of light
    Join Date
    Jan 24, 2011
    Gender
    Male Male
    Posts
    17,621
    Threads
    218
    Thanks
    8,853
    Thanked 4,019 Times in 2,447 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jululps To view the link you have to Register
    Manson over Evan and Chad any day. To view the link you have to Register
    All of them are better than those socialite bois she hangs out in hollywood back in the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Opinionated Brit To view the link you have to Register
    Exactly,

    From what I've been reading from Manson as well he really does feel a bit victimised and misunderstood by the press. The kind of publicity he got from the press was based on assumptions about his music and style and this wasn't based on concrete facts. People seem to accept everything they hear on TV shows and don't respect the difference between fact and opinion. This has really hurt Manson.

    He's not just been popular with Avril either, lots of other people who know him personally have got on very well with him.



    It's this kind of thing that people seem to judge Avril for. She doesn't hang out in a gang of happy little popstars like some other artists do. To me that just looks fake and like a desperate plea for popularity and association anyway. She seems to hang out with whoever she wants to hang out with and who are we to question her, we don't even know these people personally and I've seen a lot of statements based on presumptuous ideals.
    I am not saint regarding, because I kinda believed in the saying who you hangs out with tells a lot about the real you. I actually did questioned Avril regarding this matter. A LOT!

    I am more than happy that Avril is not in a gang of happy pop stars like some artists do.

    Avril love to hangs out whoever she wants, however, her history of who she hangs out with in the past, famous and non famous makes me shake my head, I mean the Hilton sisters, Brandon Davis, who is unlike Manson, is not really popular even among his "friend. And also remember in late 2008-2009, Avril i seen partying with some random rich guys and women and all that shit, That's why when Avril hangs out with Manson, its a sight of relief in my part, because compare to those previous people she hangs out and partied with, Manson is actually the good guy and the better, good influence on Avril. Those guys may not look "Creepy" but they make Manson's moral and activities more of a boyscout.

    Believe it or no, Manson is perhaps one of Avrils best and safest choice of people to hang out with.

    Off course now she is much smarter to know who she have to hang out with.

  17. Post #12
    Moderator
    mmm


    Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps is a glorious beacon of light Jululps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 13, 2008
    Gender
    Male Male
    Twitter
    Posts
    6,425
    Threads
    89
    Thanks
    1,572
    Thanked 3,000 Times in 1,454 Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by avrilxxx15 To view the link you have to Register
    All of them are better than those socialite bois she hangs out in hollywood back in the day.
    Agree to disagree.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts